Comments on: The problems with using CSS frameworks http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/ Tue, 27 Jul 2010 10:27:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: planetmcd http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/comment-page-1/#comment-20674 planetmcd Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:18:05 +0000 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/#comment-20674 I second JGM's response. I am a 1-man band designing internal web apps at a University and I could spend time designing my own CSS, but often enough, the browser tested CSS is good enough for web applications that need to be well organized, but not flashy. Anytime I spend working with the CSS is time I can't spend on features, user interface design, or testing (or slashdot/digg/reddit/dzone). Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of times where a framework is not the right call. But there are enough times where they are. As to your specific criticism about the layout and style being mixed, it's a drawback to be sure. But how many times during a site redesign do you really leave the html untouched? And when your site gets large, why wouldn't you be using a CMS with a template/layout. You've got other problems rather than hand written CSS or not. The other benefit is that a framework can let people who are technical, but not designers, develop decent looking, well laid out websites. Learning design is not the same as learning the semantics of CSS and a framework might help those that need design guidance on their feet quicker. I second JGM’s response. I am a 1-man band designing internal web apps at a University and I could spend time designing my own CSS, but often enough, the browser tested CSS is good enough for web applications that need to be well organized, but not flashy. Anytime I spend working with the CSS is time I can’t spend on features, user interface design, or testing (or slashdot/digg/reddit/dzone).

Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of times where a framework is not the right call. But there are enough times where they are.

As to your specific criticism about the layout and style being mixed, it’s a drawback to be sure. But how many times during a site redesign do you really leave the html untouched? And when your site gets large, why wouldn’t you be using a CMS with a template/layout. You’ve got other problems rather than hand written CSS or not.

The other benefit is that a framework can let people who are technical, but not designers, develop decent looking, well laid out websites. Learning design is not the same as learning the semantics of CSS and a framework might help those that need design guidance on their feet quicker.

]]> By: James Bennett http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/comment-page-1/#comment-20671 James Bennett Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:54:02 +0000 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/#comment-20671 Nearly 18 months ago I wrote a long-ish explanation of why arguments such as yours just don't hold up for me. I'd appreciate it if you'd take the time to read through and possibly respond: http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2007/nov/19/frameworks/ Nearly 18 months ago I wrote a long-ish explanation of why arguments such as yours just don’t hold up for me. I’d appreciate it if you’d take the time to read through and possibly respond:

http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2007/nov/19/frameworks/

]]> By: JGM http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/comment-page-1/#comment-20669 JGM Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:24:39 +0000 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/#comment-20669 I think its another one of those, right tool for the job things. Would I use one while laying out a client's public facing website? Probably not. But I like using them when throwing together a proof of concept or internal web application that is highly templated anyway. They can also come in handy for an application that has a very short time from concept to launch. Freeing up some time that would have been spent on design to be able to spend on QA or Development. Just one more tool in the swiss army knife of web development. I think its another one of those, right tool for the job things. Would I use one while laying out a client’s public facing website? Probably not. But I like using them when throwing together a proof of concept or internal web application that is highly templated anyway. They can also come in handy for an application that has a very short time from concept to launch. Freeing up some time that would have been spent on design to be able to spend on QA or Development. Just one more tool in the swiss army knife of web development.

]]> By: Vladimir Carrer http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/comment-page-1/#comment-20662 Vladimir Carrer Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:48:27 +0000 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/#comment-20662 I agree that CSS Frameworks are not always good solution but they can save you time and testing. My framework Emastic http://code.google.com/p/emastic/ is less then 4kb(Bloated?).The naming convention is minimalistic dl20 (div left 20 em). Fluid and fixed columns. Optional you can use semantic naming conventions. And works well even on IE 5.5. Yes, I agree that is best to write your own code, but do we all have time and knowledge? I agree that CSS Frameworks are not always good solution but they can save you time and testing.
My framework Emastic http://code.google.com/p/emastic/ is less then 4kb(Bloated?).The naming convention is minimalistic dl20 (div left 20 em). Fluid and fixed columns. Optional you can use semantic naming conventions. And works well even on IE 5.5.
Yes, I agree that is best to write your own code, but do we all have time and knowledge?

]]> By: Dave http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/comment-page-1/#comment-20661 Dave Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:30:22 +0000 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/#comment-20661 Hi Stefan, I'd love to see a working example of that as it sounds pretty impressive, a definite one for your blog or I'd be happy for you to write a guest post here. I'm not totally against CSS frameworks if they're used intellegently but my main pet hate with them is the fear that people who don't understand CSS or HTML will use them as a fast track to creating layouts without understanding the trouble they may get into further down the line. You obviously understand them and much more so as long as designers are making an informed decision as to whether they're going to use them or not then that's fine with me :) Hi Stefan, I’d love to see a working example of that as it sounds pretty impressive, a definite one for your blog or I’d be happy for you to write a guest post here.

I’m not totally against CSS frameworks if they’re used intellegently but my main pet hate with them is the fear that people who don’t understand CSS or HTML will use them as a fast track to creating layouts without understanding the trouble they may get into further down the line.

You obviously understand them and much more so as long as designers are making an informed decision as to whether they’re going to use them or not then that’s fine with me :)

]]> By: Stefan http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/comment-page-1/#comment-20660 Stefan Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:12:39 +0000 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/#comment-20660 It's true that class="column span-15 gutter-1" isn't very sophisticated by itself. However, I especially liked the idea of generating those three classes dynamically to create really dynamic layouts. I've done a simple proof of concept with Apache Wicket (a component-based Java framework) and Blueprint CSS and it really worked great (Although I never used it for a serious project). With this Wicket-Blueprint-integration you could have done something like: Container container = new Container(...) container.add(new Column(...)) container.add(new Column(...)) container.add(new Column(...)) The container would get a width of 24 (span-24), and each column a width of 8 (span-8). By adding a 4th column, all columns would automagically get a width of 6 instead. I never published or blogged anything about this hack yet. Maybe I should? :) It’s true that class=”column span-15 gutter-1″ isn’t very sophisticated by itself. However, I especially liked the idea of generating those three classes dynamically to create really dynamic layouts. I’ve done a simple proof of concept with Apache Wicket (a component-based Java framework) and Blueprint CSS and it really worked great (Although I never used it for a serious project). With this Wicket-Blueprint-integration you could have done something like:

Container container = new Container(…)
container.add(new Column(…))
container.add(new Column(…))
container.add(new Column(…))

The container would get a width of 24 (span-24), and each column a width of 8 (span-8). By adding a 4th column, all columns would automagically get a width of 6 instead.

I never published or blogged anything about this hack yet. Maybe I should? :)

]]> By: Paolo http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/comment-page-1/#comment-20639 Paolo Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:05:03 +0000 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/#comment-20639 Yes I got your point and I agree Many of these frameworks are really too complicated and with many feature you don't usually need in a project Yes I got your point and I agree
Many of these frameworks are really too complicated and with many feature you don’t usually need in a project

]]> By: Jermayn http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/comment-page-1/#comment-20635 Jermayn Fri, 13 Mar 2009 06:45:30 +0000 http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/index.php/the-problems-with-using-css-frameworks/#comment-20635 Yeah I dont use them either, ive never been totally happy when using a framework or reset as I tend to spend more time fixing it to my liking than if I just created it myself. Yeah I dont use them either, ive never been totally happy when using a framework or reset as I tend to spend more time fixing it to my liking than if I just created it myself.

]]>